WASHINGTON (AP) ? Right from the start, the NFL said Gregg Williams was in charge of a pay-for-pain bounty system with the New Orleans Saints.
The former defensive coordinator ? who told the league about others' involvement ? was being cross-examined Friday by lawyers for players appealing their suspensions in the case.
And two of those players, Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma and defensive lineman Will Smith, attended Williams' session.
"We all know why we're here today," Vilma said Friday on his way into the hearing.
The hearing is part of the latest round of player appeals overseen by former NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. Former Saints assistant coach Mike Cerullo faced questions Thursday, when lawyers for the league and for players spent more than nine hours in a Washington office building.
Tagliabue and various lawyers declined to comment Thursday or Friday.
Vilma and Smith traveled to Washington after playing in New Orleans' 23-13 loss at Atlanta on Thursday night.
Neither player was required to attend Friday, but Smith said this week that "part of the things that we wanted all along was to face our accusers."
Vilma and Smith ? along with two former Saints, free-agent defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove and Cleveland Browns linebacker Scott Fujita ? were suspended by the NFL for the Saints' cash-for-hits program that the league says Williams ran from 2009 to 2011.
Smith, suspended four games, and Vilma, suspended for the entire current season, have been playing while their appeals are pending.
The NFL has described Vilma and Smith as ringleaders of a performance pool designed to knock targeted opponents out of games. The league has sworn statements from Williams and Cerullo saying Vilma offered $10,000 to anyone who knocked quarterback Brett Favre out of the NFC championship game at the end of the 2009 season.
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell issued the initial suspensions, which also included a full-season ban for Saints head coach Sean Payton.
Lawsuits brought by Vilma and the NFL Players Association to challenge Goodell's handling of the case, including his decision in October to appoint Tagliabue as the arbitrator for the appeals, are pending in federal court in New Orleans.
On Thursday, U.S. District Judge Ginger Berrigan gave the parties until Monday to answer questions about whether the NFL's collective bargaining agreement prevents a commissioner from handing out discipline for legal contact, and whether the CBA's passages about detrimental conduct are "ambiguous, hence unenforceable."
In March, the NFL announced that its investigation showed the Saints put together a bounty pool of up to $50,000 to reward game-ending injuries inflicted on opponents. "Knockouts" were worth $1,500 and "cart-offs" $1,000 ? with payments doubled or tripled for the playoffs, the league said.
According to the league, the pay-for-pain program was administered by Williams, with Payton's knowledge. At the time, Williams apologized for his role, saying: "It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it."
Later that month, Payton became the first head coach suspended by the league for any reason ? banned for all of this season without pay ? and Williams was suspended indefinitely.
Williams was known for his aggressive, physical defenses as a coordinator for Tennessee, Washington, Jacksonville and New Orleans, and during his time as head coach of Buffalo. In January, he was hired by St. Louis to lead their defense.
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BEIRUT (Reuters) - Syrian rebels battled forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad just outside Damascus on Thursday, restricting access to its international airport, and the Dubai-based Emirates airline and EgyptAir stopped flights to the Syrian capital.
The Internet and some telephone lines went down across Syria. Rebels and the government traded blame for the blackout, the worst communications outage in 20 months of conflict.
Rebels fighting to topple President Bashar al-Assad have been making gains around Syria by overunning military bases and have been ramping up attacks on Damascus, his seat of power.
A rebel fighter who identified himself as Abu Omar, a member of the Jund Allah brigade, told Reuters that insurgents fired mortars at the airport's runways and were blocking the road linking it with the capital.
Speaking from the scene of the fighting, he said insurgents were not inside the airport but were able to block access to and from it.
A spokesman for rebels' Military Council in Damascus, Musaab Abu Qitada, said an artillery round was fired at a military site inside the airport and that fighting was now less than a kilometer (mile) away from the complex.
"We want to liberate the airport because of reports we see and our own information we have that shows civilian airplanes are being flown in here with weapons for the regime. It is our right to stop this," he told Reuters on Skype from Damascus.
Two Austrian soldiers in a U.N. peacekeeping force deployed to monitor the frontier with the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights were wounded when their convoy came under fire near Damascus airport, Austria's defense ministry said. Syria state television said the soldiers were wounded by gunfire when rebels attacked an army position near the airport road.
The Information Ministry later said the highway to the airport was safe after security forces cleared it of "terrorists". Rebels said fighting in the area was continuing. The ministry said the airport was operating regularly, but there were no flights scheduled to land in the evening.
The accounts of fighting could not be immediately verified because of tight restrictions on media access to Syria.
But many airlines had already halted flights. Emirates suspended daily service to Damascus "until further notice". EgyptAir also said it was suspending all flights to Damascus because of "the deterioration of the security situation" there.
An EgyptAir flight that left at 1:30 p.m. (1130 GMT) landed in Damascus on schedule but the pilot was instructed to take off straight back to Egypt, airport sources in Cairo said.
INTERNET, PHONE LINES DWN
Residents said the Internet in Damascus crashed in the early afternoon and mobile and land telephone lines were functioning only intermittently.
A blog post on Renesys, a U.S. company which tracks Internet traffic worldwide, said that at 12:26 pm (1026 GMT), the entire country's Internet connectivity shut down completely.
The government has been accused of cutting communications in previous assaults on rebel-held areas in Syria. Syria's minister of information said "terrorists" were responsible for the Internet shutdown, while the telecommunications minister blamed what he said was a fault in the main communicatins network.
The past two weeks have seen rebels seizing a series of army bases across Syria, exposing Assad's loss of control in northern and eastern regions despite the devastating air power that he has used to bombard opposition strongholds, killing dozens of civilians as well. More than 40,000 people have been killed since the uprising began, according to opposition groups.
Rebels and activists said the fighting along the road to Damascus airport, southeast of the capital, was heavier in that area than at any other time in the conflict.
"PREPARING FOR MAJOR BATTLE"
Nabeel al-Ameer, from the rebel Military Council, said a large number of army reinforcements had arrived along the road after three days of scattered clashes ending with rebels seizing side streets to the north of it.
He said he hoped the proximity of the rebels to the airport would dissuade authorities from using it to import military equipment, but the priority now was to block the road.
There are several military airports around Damascus that remain under government control.
A Syrian security source told Reuters on condition of anonymity that the army had started a "cleansing operation" in the capital to confront rebel advances.
The source, who is from Assad's elite 4th Armored Division, said one of the aims of the operation was to seal off the suburbs - where rebels are dominant - from the city centre.
Assad is fighting an insurgency that grew out of peaceful demonstrations for democratic reform but has escalated, after a military crackdown on protesters, into a bloody civil war.
Syrian warplanes on Thursday bombed Kafr Souseh, Douma and Daraya, neighborhoods that fringe the centre of the city where rebels have managed to hide out and ambush army units.
Activists said the areas were taking one of the heaviest poundings they had seen in months.
A senior European Union official said that Assad - whose family has held power in Syria for 42 years - might be preparing for a military showdown around Damascus by isolating the city with a network of checkpoints.
"The rebels are gaining ground but it is still rather slow. We are not witnessing the last days yet," the official said on condition of anonymity.
"On the outskirts of Damascus, there are mortars and more attacks. The regime is thinking of protecting itself ... with checkpoints in the next few days ... (It) seems the regime is preparing for major battle on Damascus."
WARY BIG POWERS
Most foreign powers have condemned Assad but stopped short of arming rebel fighters as they fear heavy weapons could make their way into the hands of radical Islamist units, who have grown increasingly prominent in the insurgency.
Rebels decry their supporters for not providing them with surface-to-air missiles that they say they need to counter the air force. But recent looting of anti-aircraft missiles from army bases, as well a slow stream of such weapons believed to be coming from Gulf Arab adversaries of Assad, has allowed them to shoot down some helicopters and jets.
"So far, there is no evidence that any of the surface-to-air missiles used to date have come from outside Syria," said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch.
"The limited number of surface-to-air missiles that have shown up all appear to have come from Syrian military stock captured by the armed opposition."
He said the number of these missiles in rebel hands was probably over 20 but could rise significantly if rebels continue to capture military bsaes.
The relatively small number of anti-aircraft missiles looted so far means that many rebel-controlled areas of the country remain vulnerable to air strikes. The Observatory said 15 citizens, including children and women, were killed during a bombing in Aleppo's Ansari district on Thursday.
Activist video footage showed the bodies of at least four children, wrapped in red blankets and apparently wearing pyjamas. Another video showed the immediate aftermath of the attack, with the bodies of children in the street and covered in cement dust. Half of one young boy's head was missing.
(Additional reporting by Dominic Evans and Erika Solomon in Beirut; Yasmine Saleh and Edmund Blair in Cairo, Praveen Menon in Dubai, Georgina Prodhan in Vienna, Tarmo Virki in helsinki and Justyna Pawlak in Brussels; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Moscow court on Wednesday convicted a man of participating in a failed plot to carry out a suicide bomb attack in Red Square on New Year's Eve in 2010 and sentenced him to 15 years in prison, the Russian prosecutor general's office said.
The court found that Ilyas Saidov brought two bombs to Moscow from the volatile North Caucasus republic of Dagestan on a bus and delivered them to two women who were to set them off on the square outside the Kremlin, it said.
One of the bombs exploded in a hotel room after being triggered by a spam text message, killing one of the women, according to Russian law enforcement authorities.
Saidov avoided a possible life sentence by confessing to the crime, as well as others he was charged with committing in the North Caucasus, and cooperating with investigators.
Thousands of Russians gather on Red Square to ring in the New Year and watch fireworks.
Russia is fighting an Islamist insurgency in the North Caucasus that is rooted in two post-Soviet wars against Chechen separatists, and the militants have sometimes targeted Moscow.
Two women killed 40 people in near-simultaneous suicide bombings in the Moscow subway in 2010, and a suicide bomber killed 38 people at a city airport in January 2011.
(Reporting by Gleb Bryanski; Editing by Jon Hemming)
CAIRO (Reuters) - An Islamist-led assembly finalized a new constitution early on Friday aimed at transforming Egypt and paving the way for an end to a crisis that erupted when President Mohamed Mursi gave himself sweeping new powers last week.
Mursi said his decree halting court challenges to his decisions, which provoked protests and violence from Egyptians fearing a new dictator was emerging less than two years after they ousted Hosni Mubarak, was "for an exceptional stage."
"It will end as soon as the people vote on a constitution," he told state television on Thursday night. "There is no place for dictatorship."
The assembly concluded the vote after a session that lasted 19 hours, approving all articles including presidential powers, the status of Islam, the military's role and the extent to which human rights will be respected in the post-Hosni Mubarak era.
The final draft contains historic changes to Egypt's system of government. It limits to eight years the amount of time a president can serve, for example. Mubarak was in power for three decades. It also introduces a degree of oversight over the military establishment - though not enough for critics.
President Mursi is expected to ratify the document by Saturday, allowing a referendum to be held as soon as mid-December on a text the Islamists say reflects Egypt's new freedoms.
"We have finished working on Egypt's constitution. We will call the president today (Friday) at a reasonable hour to inform him that the assembly has finished its task and the project of the constitution is completed," said Hossam el-Gheriyani, head of the assembly in a live broadcast of the session.
The vote was often interrupted by bickering between the mostly Islamist members and Gheriyani over the document's articles. Several articles were amended on the spot before they were voted on.
"This is a revolutionary constitution," Gheriyani said, asking members of the assembly to launch a cross-country campaign to "explain to our nation its constitution," added Gheriyani, after which Egypt's national anthem was played.
Gheriyani said the assembly would continue its work in an administrative capacity to prepare for the popular referendum that Mursi is to call for after reading the finalized draft.
Mursi's critics argue it is an attempt to rush through a draft they say has been hijacked by the Muslim Brotherhood, which backed Mursi for president in June elections, and its allies.
Two people have been killed and hundreds injured in the protests since last Thursday's decree, which deepened the divide between the newly empowered Islamists and their opponents.
Setting the stage for more tension, the Muslim Brotherhood and its Islamist allies have called for pro-Mursi rallies on Saturday. But officials from the Brotherhood's party changed the venue and said they would avoid Tahrir Square, where a sit-in by the president's opponents entered an eighth day on Friday.
Seeking to calm protesters, Mursi said he welcomed opposition but it should not divide Egyptians and there was no place for violence. "I am very happy that Egypt has real political opposition," he said.
He stressed the need to attract investors and tourists to Egypt, where the crisis threatens to derail some early signs of an economic recovery after two years of turmoil. Egypt's benchmark stock index fell on Thursday to a four-month low.
'MAY GOD BLESS US'
An alliance of Egyptian opposition groups pledged to keep up protests and said broader civil disobedience was possible to fight what it described as an attempt to "kidnap Egypt from its people."
Eleven Egyptian newspapers plan not to publish on Tuesday to protest Mursi's decree, one reported. Al-Masry Al-Youm, one of Egypt's most widely read daily newspapers, also said three privately owned satellite channels would not broadcast on Wednesday in protest.
The plebiscite is a gamble based on the Islamists' belief that they can mobilise voters again after winning all elections held since Mubarak was overthrown in February 2011.
"May God bless us on this day," Gheriyani, the speaker of the constituent assembly, told members at the start of the session to vote on each of the 234 articles in the draft, which will go to Mursi for approval and then to the plebiscite.
The legitimacy of the constitutional assembly has been called into question by a series of court cases demanding its dissolution. Its standing has also suffered from the withdrawal of members including church representatives of the Christian minority and liberals.
The Brotherhood argues that approval of the constitution in a referendum would bury all arguments about both the legality of the assembly and the text it has written in the last six months.
Mursi is expected to approve the adopted draft at the weekend. He must then call the referendum within 15 days. If Egyptians approve the constitution, legislative powers will pass straight from Mursi to the upper house of parliament, in line with an article in the new constitution, assembly members said.
The draft injects new Islamic references into Egypt's system of government but keeps in place an article defining "the principles of sharia" as the main source of legislation - the same phrase found in the previous constitution.
HISTORIC CHANGES
Among other historic changes to Egypt's system of government, it caps the amount of time a president can serve at two terms, or eight years. Mubarak ruled for three decades. It also introduces a measure of civilian oversight - not nearly enough for the critics - over the military establishment.
The president can declare war with parliament's approval, but only after consulting a national defence council with a heavy military and security membership, effectively giving the army a say. That element was not in the old constitution, used when Egypt was ruled by ex-military men.
Activists highlighted other flaws such as worrying articles pertaining to the rights of women and freedom of speech.
"There are some good pro-freedoms articles, but there are also catastrophic articles like one that prevents insults. This could be used against journalists criticizing the president or state officials," said human rights activist Gamal Eid.
"We wanted Egyptians to get more freedoms and less presidential powers and were unhappy with the end result in those areas," said Edward Ghaleb, who had been sitting on the assembly as a representative of the Coptic Orthodox church.
New parliamentary elections cannot happen until the constitution is passed. Egypt has been without an elected legislature since the Islamist-dominated lower house was dissolved in June.
"The secular forces and the church and the judges are not happy with the constitution; the journalists are not happy, so I think this will increase tensions in the country," said Mustapha Kamal Al-Sayyid, a professor of political science at Cairo University. "I don't know how the referendum can be organised if the judges are upset," he added.
Egyptian elections are overseen by the judiciary.
The decree issued by Mursi worsened already tetchy relations with judges, many of whom saw it as a threat to their independence. Two courts declared a strike on Wednesday.
(Additional reporting by Tom Perry, Tamim Elyan, Patrick Werr, Edmund Blair and Ali Abdelatti; Editing by Philippa Fletcher and Lisa Shumaker)
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Wednesday Highlights: Eddy Cue said to have fired head of Apple's Maps, Richard Williamson, as part of Maps overhaul, to engender trust and boost accuracy; but the move does not convince some that Maps can be saved?more in our Apple/Macintosh, and Op/Ed sections; Black Friday was owned by iPad shoppers according to research; patent infringement lawsuit filed against Apple by a shell company over iPhone's use of headphones; Apple's iPad maintaining 70% hold on tablet market in China; and the gap between iPad and Android tablets is narrowing; in the Netherlands, Apple wins sales ban on Samsung Galaxy products for patent infringement over navigating images in the photo gallery whereby Samsung would have to pay up to $130,000 per day until they stop infringing; Retina-ready Photoshop CS6 rumored to hit stores on 11 December; have trouble remembering passwords?; what is the future of Apple's Logic Pro audio app given rumor that Apple is abandoning Pro apps; with tablet marketshare up for grabs, does it even matter who's got the bigger share?; Apple publishes new ad highlighting magazines on the iPad mini; The Next Web points to resource of all of Apple's TV ad ever; in today's Macworld Podcast you'll get a preview of the coming Macworld|iWorld expo; Loyd Case examines future Mac CPUs; and could we see an ARM-based Mac?; DigiTimes notes concern raised over production capacity at TSMC, following Apple's supposed change from Samsung; will we see short supplies of the iPad mini and new iMac through Q1 of 2013?; Tom's Hardware reviews the iPhone 5; Jack Purcher suggests iWallet future may be accelerated by our fear of losing our iPhones.
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Ingredients
6 Tomatoes (cubed)
9 Cloves Garlic (minced)
1/4 cup Olive Oil
1 can mushroom
5 Cans of Tuna in Vegetable oil (or in Brine)
3-4 handfuls of Basil Leaves
Salt and Pepper to taste
1/2 kilo of Spaghetti
Method
1. Heat the wok for about 7 mins with the olive oil poured in. 2. Saute the garlic and the tomatoes. 3. Add the tuna and let it simmer for 10 minutes. 4. Add in the fresh basil leaves and stir. 5. Put the cooked spaghetti into the mixture.
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The No Touching Rule In Sheepdog Trials
#1 ? geonni banner?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:49 PM
I was reading in the livestock management thread, and something struck me as interesting.
Under discussion was an unruly ewe that stood off a young dog with threat displays. It was pointed out that a whack on the bridge of her nose would have likely sorted her. I'm sure this is a regular practice in sheep farming as even the most affable ruminants can sometimes get stroppy.
I was thinking about so many videos of sheepdog trails - usually at the penning - that a well-placed knee to the butt of a static sheep would have dramatically improved the penning time of the contestant.
So if trialing is meant to be a display of the work of a stock dog and its handler, why is this sort of thing, which must come up routinely in real work situations, not allowed at trials? Is it an attempt to avoid the issue of "how much force is too much force"? Or is it that the judges want to see the dog do the lion's share of the close work?
Do dogs that normally work livestock for a living in a farm or ranch setting ever seem puzzled at a trial by the handler's lack of willingness to help things along with a well-timed smack to a sheep's butt or nose?
#2 ? Liz P?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:03 PM
The trial is supposed to showcase the dog more than anything. People want to know if the dog has the skills to do what needs to be done. If handlers were allowed to interfere too much you would have a harder time sorting out how much was the dog and how much was the handler. As it is, that can sometimes be hard to determine. Remember, people often use what they see in a dog at trials to make decisions about breeding or purchasing a pup.
#3 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:29 PM
At home if a ewe is slow to go into the stall, I do the boot in the butt encouragement....doesn't work at trials...as for a ewe standing up to a dog, a quick nip might work...or the dog slowly advancing....at trial you want to showcase your dog. At home, i need to get the job done. I teach my dogs to gip on commands so at home, if a ewe is being a snot, a quick grip changes her mind. BUT i you run on a farm flock and have sour ewe that won't move even if a dog grips her, then you are out of luck. either way, your dog must be able to show that he/she can stand up and move a unrury ewe.
(Note: the boot in the butt is me putting my boot on the sheep hind end and pushing her in...not kicking. I do not kick or hit my sheep)
#4 ? geonni banner?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:48 PM
OK, I get it, but I'm imagining the poor dog, having not won the trial because some ewe was standing just outside the pen until the clock ran out, thinking, "What's up with mom/dad? He/she usually has my back in these situations..."
Of course, the dog probably doesn't go over the run in his mind on the way home. But that moment at the gate, when the handler is watching the clock run out, tendons singing like high-tension wires - and not whacking that ding-busted ewe in the rear. Do you think the dog ever thinks WTF?
#5 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:05 PM
ghot it, if that happens I just retire and help push the ewe along with the dog following.....then tell dog, "good girl/boy......"
#6 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:22 PM
I'm sure we've all seen (or done) handler antics at the pen to try to remove that reluctant sheep. Like Diane, if we fail for some reason, I'm always sure to get the sheep moving on the way to the exhaust and let the dog know it was a job well done.
I don't think dogs think WTF.
J.
I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream. ~Vincent van Gogh
Julie Poudrier Oxford, NC Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Ranger Danger, and Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie) Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep
Willow's Rest Farm blog
#7 ? Gloria Atwater?
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Posted Yesterday, 12:44 AM
geonni banner, on 26 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:
OK, I get it, but I'm imagining the poor dog, having not won the trial because some ewe was standing just outside the pen until the clock ran out, thinking, "What's up with mom/dad? He/she usually has my back in these situations..."
Of course, the dog probably doesn't go over the run in his mind on the way home. But that moment at the gate, when the handler is watching the clock run out, tendons singing like high-tension wires - and not whacking that ding-busted ewe in the rear. Do you think the dog ever thinks WTF? />/>/>
I don't think the dogs really see it that way. Unless the situation is totally horrible and the dog is completely stressed, I doubt the dog is aware of much but the job at hand. He's not, or shouldn't be, thinking in terms of the human taking up his slack. If a dog lacks confidence and is caught in a nasty situation, i.e. a ewe that charges him or just stamps and faces him off for several minutes, then yes, I can see a dog suffering some sort of setback.
But I also think that we as handlers practice enough at home, (or should,) in encouraging the dog to do as much of the work as possible, that the dog is not really expecting us to step in. Also, at the pen, there is so much that we can do: step forward or back, wiggle the rope, waggle our crook, stomp our feet, crouch or bend, (once I leaned over and BLEW in a ewe's face - she went in, lol) that I don't think the dog will really feel hung out to dry. Not unless we're just standing there like a lump.
My tuppence, anyhow. />/> And if things really go bad, I just try to let my dog know that I appreciate their effort and they are still a good dog. Respectfully submitted,
Gloria
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~ Emily Dickinson
To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring - it was peace. ~ Milan Kundera
#8 ? Donald McCaig?
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Posted Yesterday, 05:19 AM
Dear Trainers,
The boot to the butt or the crook across the bridge of the nose will, indeed, get the sheep's attention shifted from what you might want her to do to you - the new threat on the block. After decades of working sheep, I am trying to think of an instance where brute force made a sheep do what she didn't wanna. Still thinking . . .
Donald McCaig
#9 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 01:30 PM
Gloria Atwater, on 27 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:
But I also think that we as handlers practice enough at home, (or should,) in encouraging the dog to do as much of the work as possible, that the dog is not really expecting us to step in. Gloria
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I'm assuming that the work interaction on a trial course is at least a little different from when the dog is at home. IE - the handler never touches the stock and stays at the post for the outrun, fetch, and cross drive.
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
#10 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 01:32 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 05:19 AM, said:
Dear Trainers,
The boot to the butt or the crook across the bridge of the nose will, indeed, get the sheep's attention shifted from what you might want her to do to you - the new threat on the block. After decades of working sheep, I am trying to think of an instance where brute force made a sheep do what she didn't wanna. Still thinking . . .
Donald McCaig
Well, maybe not the handler, but as for the dog but isn't that what a grip is for?
#11 ? Smalahundur?
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Posted Yesterday, 03:20 PM
#12 ? Donald McCaig?
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Posted Yesterday, 04:39 PM
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,
When I suggested that whacking a sheep rarely gets her to do what you wish, Ms Banner wondered: but isn't that what a" (dog) " grip is for?"
Like other violence, there are times when a grip is effective and more times when it just makes things worse.
Effective: some neighbor kids brought their ten pet sheep to be sheared with ours. Big Suffolk recovering bottle lambs, never seen a dog before. Luke promptly bit the leader on the nose to inform her she was a sheep.
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb . . .
Donald McCaig
#13 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 04:53 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers, ...Like other violence, there are times when a grip is effective and more times when it just makes things worse... Donald McCaig
I wish more folk could see this in day-to-day dealings.
#14 ? TEC?
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Posted Yesterday, 04:55 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:
Well, maybe not the handler, but as for the dog but isn't that what a grip is for?
A well-placed grip with just the right force, timing and duration certainly has its place in trialing and farm-work. Most handlers do not want to train the grip out of a dog, as it likely takes a little keenness with it. IME it's a fine balance that has to be maintained, so that your dog is not consistently getting DQ'd, yet retains good keenness along with a justified grip when reasonably needed. Parameters of what's justified varies among judges and handlers.
My little dog has an ,"Are you talking to me?" snap toward the nose (never seen her connect) that usually turns the sheep another direction. Infrequently she has the standard run-along-side and briefly grip wool behind front shoulders, which tells me she was out of position, and she knew it. Little like the "blatant foul" in basketball. We're working on that one, chiefly by getting her into correct position from the beginning.
Do good and experienced handlers humanely manhandle stock when need be? In event the dog, for instance, isn't successful pushing sheep through gate into muddy half of pen, handlers sometimes have to, for example, take hold of sheep to get a few through so that others will follow. The task needs to get done, nevertheless it would be poor training to have his dog try with all its ability, yet fail.
I liked everything Gloria said, especially about handler (and dog) from time to time "stepping back", also known as pressure-and-release. This tactic can be especially effective for close-in work. Sometimes the dog and handler him/herself can inadvertently over pressure stock. When stock feel too much, too close, too forceful, or too fast they freeze in-place and/or turn assertively toward the dog. A dog and handler: 1) stepping back (or moving left/right) from the packet to be shed in order to spread the group, or 2) opening the gate only halfway, so that if stock stall in entrance, there is room to swing it further-still...these are examples of releasing pressure. It's best, I believe, to find ways to invite stock to do what they likely want to do in any event.
I try to build my dog's confidence by placing her in progressively more difficult situations. If my estimation is off, and we find that she was moved along too soon, it may be best to set-up a more appropriate training scenario, or if a chore has to be done, step-up and use reasonable measures. Does a dog feel let-down by a handler who will not directly assist? I believe the dog loses a notch or two of confidence in his/her own abilities. IME herding dogs are resilient, and an occasional training error can be overcome by a little extra patience and better choice of difficulty levels. Incorporating intangibles of pace and flow can obviate many stock-dog-handler confrontations. -- Kind regards, TEC
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. - Patton
#15 ? Smalahundur?
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Posted Yesterday, 06:05 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb . . .
Not to put a finer point on it, but nobody with any sense of stock would use violence, be it a nose grip or a whack from a staff in the above situations. But maybe I wasn?t in the group you adressed, what exactly are "wouldbe" sheepdoggers...?
#16 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted Yesterday, 07:02 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I don't have panels or a pen so I personally don't train on a trial type course on a regular basis. But one can use the natural obstacles in a field to practice the elements of a trial course. I don't own a freestanding pen, so if I want to practice that I'd need to go elsewhere, but I can send sheep through gates or put them in barn stalls and really the principle is largely the same.
Quote
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
From a practical standpoint, if I needed to sort sheep at home, the fastest and easiest way to do so is to gate sort. This means that you man the gate and use your dog to bring the sheep up and then shift them around so the sheep you want end up at the gate opening and you can let them through. I almost never have a need to shed in an open field, but on occasions when I need to do that, how much I help or train or anything else would largely depend on why I'm separating a sheep and how pressed for time I am.
Likewise, I wouldn't take the time to park a trailer in the middle of a field and then proceed to try to load it. It would be an interesting training exercise to do so, but if I'm loading a trailer it's usually because I need to get the sheep somewhere on time and so I need to do it as quickly and efficiently as possible. So in that case, I'd pull the trailer along a fence or in a gateway or something similar so that I could create something of a chute that would funnel the sheep toward the back of the trailer. That would make it easier for me and the dog(s) to get the sheep loaded as efficiently and non-traumatically (for the sheep) as possible.
ETA: I went back and looked at your original question, and I think you need to consider context as well. In the livestock management section the discussion was about a ewe facing off and stomping at a *pup.* Youngsters can be seriously set back if they are hit, chased, etc., by a ewe. So in a case like that, as I said there, I'd probably go over and help turn the ewe. Normally just getting between her and a pup and wavings one's arms would be enough to turn her, but if not, then yeah, I might whack her on the nose. But you have to remember that it's a special circumstance and not an everyday occurence.
J.
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Julie Poudrier Oxford, NC Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Ranger Danger, and Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie) Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep
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#17 ? juliepoudrier?
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Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM
Quote
Makes things worse: Maiden ewe defending her newborn, sick sheep won't move, single sheep fleeing, terrified lamb
Not to put a finer point on it, but nobody with any sense of stock would use violence, be it a nose grip or a whack from a staff in the above situations.
Well, to be honest, if I have a single fleeing and the dog gets in front of it and stops it with a nose grip I don't consider that a situation where a grip *isn't* warranted. But for the other cases, I generally agree.
J.
I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream. ~Vincent van Gogh
Julie Poudrier Oxford, NC Willow, Farleigh, Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Twist (the troll), Katty Rat, Little Miss Larky Malarky, Phoebe (the rabid possum), Pipit (aka Goober), Ranger Danger, and Kestrel (aka Messy Kessie) Willow's Rest, Tunis sheep and mule sheep
Willow's Rest Farm blog
#18 ? Gloria Atwater?
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Posted Yesterday, 08:51 PM
geonni banner, on 27 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:
This explains it best for me. Do you train a dog that is primarily a farm/ranch working dog on a trial type course to get it ready to work in a trial?
I'm assuming that the work interaction on a trial course is at least a little different from when the dog is at home. IE - the handler never touches the stock and stays at the post for the outrun, fetch, and cross drive.
Would a shed at home be materially different from that on a trial course? Meaning, would the handler be helping to split the sheep using the crook or doing a bit of pushing?
I'm just moved up to Open, so still a newbie to higher levels of trialing, but for my own part, I like my dogs to understand both work and trialing. I don't own sheep, but whenever I can help friends or even just help out at a trial, I jump at the chance.
For my level of trialing - i.e., not world-moving - I'm not training a trial course, per se. I'm training the segments of it. I want a nice, long drive on my dogs, so I work to encourage steady driving. I want pace when coming into a panel and alacrity when turning into the cross drive, so I train and encourage solid stops, an honest "steady" and clean flanks. (We can discuss another time whether I get those! )
One thing I can see that can catch a handler up, when taking a dog from farm work to trialing, is that in daily work, the dog is permitted to make more of his own decisions. There's a job to do, the dog 'gets' the job, so we aren't requiring as much precision or obedience.
So, if I have a trial coming up, I'll take time out to put on extra polish, sharpen up the stops, focus on the pace, and in general make sure the dog's responses are a little crisper and cleaner than in daily work. I'm reminding him that hey, pal, right now I need you to give a little more focus to what I'm telling you, not just what you think we're doing.
I'm still fairly shaky on the shed, but when practicing shedding at home, (read, at my friends' places) my focus is on helping my dogs understand and become eager about the shed, so I am doing a fair bit of helping. I'll step in more, use my crook more, stamp my feet, etc., to make that opening happen. (In practice/training, I'm dealing with fairly doggy farm-flock sheep.) But in a trial, I think judges prefer to see minimal human input, in the shed. We get to pick the place to make the cut, but I would expect the judge to nick me pretty hard, if I step in to make the gap.
That said, though, being as I'm still starting out, I'll do what I think it takes to make the shed happen. Someday when I'm better at this, I'll worry about making my shedding more judge-approved.
Respectfully submitted,
Gloria
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~ Emily Dickinson
To sit with a dog on a hillside on a glorious afternoon is to be back in Eden, where doing nothing was not boring - it was peace. ~ Milan Kundera
#19 ? DeltaBluez Tess?
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Posted Yesterday, 09:31 PM
Donald McCaig, on 27 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:
Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,
Donald McCaig
Don,
Who are you referring to "Wouldbe Sheepdoggers".....this kinda implies none of us are sheepdog folks but wannabes....which is not true for me as well as some of others who have sheep and/or are Open trial folks...or you just only addressing those who are not folks who do not have sheep and/or do not trial?
Diane
#20 ? geonni banner?
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Posted Yesterday, 10:12 PM
Well, as for myself, I'm a would-like-to-be-but-probably-never-will-be-sheepdogger asking academic questions. There are probably lots of us here. And lots of the-real-deal-sheepdoggers and a number of people with zero interest in sheepdogging. And I'm sure we all know which category we fit into. I don't think any disrespect was intended.
I started this thread because I really do care about Border Collies - the real ones that work sheep. Despite the fact that money, mobility issues and agoraphobia will likely conspire to keep me and sheep in very different environments, I want to know as much as I can about these dogs and their work - in the paddock or on the trial field.
I want to hear more about how these dogs and their handlers do things. I want to hear Julie explain why she thinks dogs don't have WTF moments, because my dogs all seemed to me to have them, like the time my Collie saw me in a gorilla suit. (Don't ask) And the time my Doberman went to guard dog evaluation and one of the testers came out banging a bamboo cane on the ground, wearing a burlap bag over his head, singing "Camptown Races" and walking like a drunk. Her mouth snapped shut, she watched him with amazement for a moment and then gave me a look that said, plain as day, "Are you seeing this? WTF?!"
ETA: My Doberman flunked the guard dog evaluation - "Smart, a great dog, but not at all protective." The following week she caught a guy trying to pry a screen off one of the back windows of the house. She went for him, chased him to the 6-foot back yard fence, which he tried to clamber over, and held him by the calf of his leg until the police arrived to rescue him. He required sixty-some stitches.
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geonni banner, on 26 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:
/>/> And if things really go bad, I just try to let my dog know that I appreciate their effort and they are still a good dog.
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